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Post by GM Kelin on Mar 17, 2016 18:05:12 GMT
We really like the discussion that has been going on. Some good points have been brought up. We have been investigating these issues these last few days and come to the following conclusions... Balance among haste spells There is no doubt here, paladins are greatly disfavored when compared to other vocations. We are going to implement major changes for the Swift Foot spell (and also some minor ones for the spells Charge and Strong Haste) with the next patch. Paladin damage About the issue of paladins not having the highest single-target damage in the game, well, all we can say is that it's not true. We can mathematically state that, in a scenario where elemental resistances don't play a role, the average damage output of a paladin using his basic attacks and just the spell ethereal spear is larger than any other vocation's single-target damage, no matter which spell rotation they choose to use. When factoring the spell Whirling Barrage into the paladin's rotation, the difference gets even larger. This is true for all levels higher than 70~80, and is independent on the weapon choice of the paladin (only exception is when the paladin is using the triple bolt crossbow). But as many of you stated, paladins are disfavored in most other scenarios. This season particularly, we have seen much less bossfights than previous seasons, and players are tending more to do solo-content or teamhunts in groups of 2-3. This is probably the cause why these weaknesses are becoming more obvious. This being said, with the next update we are going to give paladins more options to do area damage (through weapons and gear, not through new spells). We are also going to increase the mana cost and damage of the spell Strong Ethereal Spear. As some of you pointed out, it had too little difference in terms of damage against Ethereal Spear, and when introduced in the spell rotation only increased the paladin's average damage by about 3-4%. Knights The real balance problem of this season. We have been monitoring the solo/small team capabilities of high-level knights and definitely something is off in their balance. We are still investigating about the cause, since no real changes were made to the vocation for quite some time. We also do not have the feeling that we are facing a consequence of the introduction of blacksmithing. We will let you know when we have an answer for this. What do you guys think about these changes? They are not final yet, any input you can give will be valuable
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Post by ferrados on Mar 17, 2016 19:31:17 GMT
I'm all for a buff to Strong Ethereal Spear. ^^
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Post by hoold on Mar 17, 2016 19:37:09 GMT
I am really looking forward to changes you are going to make because as I said there were two major disadvantages paladins have comparing to others - moving speed & amount of exp gained per hour, so I hope it will change somehow.
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Paladin
Mar 17, 2016 21:39:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by jamalswaxon on Mar 17, 2016 21:39:59 GMT
As a knight, can say I was really weak up until I got the SOV and trained for 2 nights at trainers, then I was able to keep up. The Mages I played with were able to do damage right out the gates, but it wasn't until around level 130 with 70 sword fighting that I was as to "keep up" with them. Now I am able to spread my wings and fly.
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Paladin
Mar 17, 2016 21:41:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by jamalswaxon on Mar 17, 2016 21:41:08 GMT
As a knight, can say I was really weak up until I got the SOV and trained for 2 nights at trainers, then I was able to keep up. The Mages I played with were able to do damage right out the gates, but it wasn't until around level 130 with 70 sword fighting that I was as to "keep up" with them. Now I am able to spread my wings and fly. Not to mention that I am able to spam UHP to survive now which brings up my exp/hr.
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Post by hoold on Mar 17, 2016 22:24:14 GMT
We also do not have the feeling that we are facing a consequence of the introduction of blacksmithing. We will let you know when we have an answer for this. As of now since we don't know how to obtain many new items we can't say if it's blacksmithing but these new items are kind of not fair. Knights & mages again got most of their items only with positiv stats (except few items like -3% holy dmg for knights boots or someting) and many of paladin items got like -15/20 speed (really when it's most crucial for us? I suggest to change '-' -> '+') or decrased healing ability. As example I can say that frostwing bow which is comparing to warsinger bow much easier to obtain is practically useless since no paladin would wear it when it decrases speed (I personally decided to stick to hornbow until I laid my hands on warsinger and that applies to many other paladins). If you could please revise new items and their bonuses especially those with -xx speed for paladins since those items most probably will never be used. I noticed that there are a lot of new items for mages & knight and few for paladins but it might be just my imagination I will scroll trough the market more later and check it myself one more time. edit: but there are a lot that are really nice like few helmets I saw with additional dmg against undead or some r7 minions.
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Post by hoold on Mar 19, 2016 10:34:34 GMT
I forgot to mention one more thing about paladin spells. Sharpshooter as of now is mostly useless, during hunts nobody will use and during bosses it's really risky to cast this spell for these few extra sec of additional damage, while knights buff is on/off spell and only disadvantage is that it increases received damage I would like to change paladin buff into similar spell that would be usefull during hunts and not so suicide kind of spell where we as penalty are paralyzed and can not heal at all. I think that it could buff as much as it is now but increase received dmg (so yeah knight like spell but for paladins).
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Post by GM Kelin on Mar 19, 2016 17:48:00 GMT
I forgot to mention one more thing about paladin spells. Sharpshooter as of now is mostly useless, during hunts nobody will use and during bosses it's really risky to cast this spell for these few extra sec of additional damage, while knights buff is on/off spell and only disadvantage is that it increases received damage I would like to change paladin buff into similar spell that would be usefull during hunts and not so suicide kind of spell where we as penalty are paralyzed and can not heal at all. I think that it could buff as much as it is now but increase received dmg (so yeah knight like spell but for paladins). About this issue, giving the paladin a similar buff (increased skills for increased damage received) would be incredibly unfair, since a paladin as a general matter in bossfights/team quests does not receive anywhere near the same amount of damage as a knight. The knight that decides to use Battle Stance, however, even if he goes as a DPS role and does not block a single creature, must still stand in melee range to deal damage, meaning that he will receive substantial damage from area attacks. In summary: In a team scenario, a 25% received damage increase is almost a non-exsistant handicap for a paladin, but can be lethal for a damage-dealing knight.
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Post by Fixuki on Mar 19, 2016 18:42:24 GMT
I forgot to mention one more thing about paladin spells. Sharpshooter as of now is mostly useless, during hunts nobody will use and during bosses it's really risky to cast this spell for these few extra sec of additional damage, while knights buff is on/off spell and only disadvantage is that it increases received damage I would like to change paladin buff into similar spell that would be usefull during hunts and not so suicide kind of spell where we as penalty are paralyzed and can not heal at all. I think that it could buff as much as it is now but increase received dmg (so yeah knight like spell but for paladins). I wonder if you actually think things through or are just looking to make your vocation stronger without adding real weaknesses to it.
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Post by hoold on Mar 19, 2016 22:48:44 GMT
I wonder if you actually think things through or are just looking to make your vocation stronger without adding real weaknesses to it. Well looking on knights how they can use all their spells to benefit themself no matter the situation I wonder why do paladins have to use some spells only in certain situations and even then being punished for doing so quite heavily, and no I don't want to make paladins op I just want it to be fair to play as paladin comparing to other vocations. I wonder why you didn't actually came up with any proposition to balance vocations and improve paladins when they were falling behind, you only came here to start some kind of flamewar or what? couldn't you state any counterargument or propose any other way to change this spell so it would be more useful? yet you try to insult me without reason, are you worried that your overpowered semi-fortress mages will be aligned with the paladin? I don't want to fall to your standard because then you could defeat me with experience in those kind of argument fights then I am going to propose other thing, if what I said is too much then at least remove healing incapacity because not being able either to run away or to heal during bosses (yeah because this spell is useless during all kinds of hunts no matter if it is solo or team hunt) is not motivating to use this spell especially here where monsters are custom with many different attack patterns while this spell was designed for normal tibia, as if you didn't know Fixuki here bosses can target all players on screen at once, they can teleport, there are multiple bosses at a time and many other things we might don't know about yet you try to tell me I am just trying to make paladin overpowered but here comes role of Game Masters who are the ones responsible for doing so that it won't go wrong way, I am just trying to direct them in some way and you do not help at all.] ~~ Edit; Just saw Gm's post after writing this one, then I'm not going to say anything more in this matter but the spell itself will remain boss only worth and not in all situations until you have few healers so one can afford to take a look after paladins health.
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Post by lol on Mar 19, 2016 23:42:34 GMT
you dont lose soul points on making spears/arrows/runes
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Post by Fixuki on Mar 20, 2016 8:06:32 GMT
I wonder if you actually think things through or are just looking to make your vocation stronger without adding real weaknesses to it. Well looking on knights how they can use all their spells to benefit themself no matter the situation I wonder why do paladins have to use some spells only in certain situations and even then being punished for doing so quite heavily, and no I don't want to make paladins op I just want it to be fair to play as paladin comparing to other vocations. I wonder why you didn't actually came up with any proposition to balance vocations and improve paladins when they were falling behind, you only came here to start some kind of flamewar or what? couldn't you state any counterargument or propose any other way to change this spell so it would be more useful? yet you try to insult me without reason, are you worried that your overpowered semi-fortress mages will be aligned with the paladin? I don't want to fall to your standard because then you could defeat me with experience in those kind of argument fights then I am going to propose other thing, if what I said is too much then at least remove healing incapacity because not being able either to run away or to heal during bosses (yeah because this spell is useless during all kinds of hunts no matter if it is solo or team hunt) is not motivating to use this spell especially here where monsters are custom with many different attack patterns while this spell was designed for normal tibia, as if you didn't know Fixuki here bosses can target all players on screen at once, they can teleport, there are multiple bosses at a time and many other things we might don't know about yet you try to tell me I am just trying to make paladin overpowered but here comes role of Game Masters who are the ones responsible for doing so that it won't go wrong way, I am just trying to direct them in some way and you do not help at all.] ~~ Edit; Just saw Gm's post after writing this one, then I'm not going to say anything more in this matter but the spell itself will remain boss only worth and not in all situations until you have few healers so one can afford to take a look after paladins health. Yes knights benefit from their spells, however they have a very noticeable drawback. While using their fighter stance they take A LOT more damage, it makes a huge difference when hunting stronger monsters. While using their defensive stance they barely deal damage AND cannot move any items, meaning they can't even put on amulets or rings. Paladins falling far behind? Let's take a look at the highscores shall we? 2 Slim 119036806 194 4 Xirvisa 101663635 184 5 Ferret Blackbow 100133736 183 10 What The Fuck 66456673 160 4 players in the top 10 are paladins, 3 are knights, 2 are druids and 1 is a sorcerer. If we take this and your statement into consideration, the vocation we should be looking to balance out are sorcerers, not paladins. There is no need to change this spell, as it is meant to be for specific situations, not to boost paladins damage even further. Can you imagine having a paladin shoot you for 300~400 per bolt just because they can use their sharpshooter spell without true drawbacks? Yeah you might hit xx% more, big deal. I SD for about 300, then it'll go up to 375, paladins still outheal that in a 2-3 v 1 against mages. About the spell being useless in teamhunts, I suppose none of your druids is able to heal you at all? I am able to keep an eye on other people than just my knight, making sure I have mass healing hotkeyed to save other people in my party. Oh I do know what bosses are capable of in this server, as I've made more progress last season than most people playing this server right now, so you don't need to tell me what they can do. Last season we had a paladin in our group, he had no problems whatsoever staying alive in any boss fight, no matter if he used sharpshooter or not. We had him use sharpshooter at every boss from Ulderek to the bosses in hell, and we managed to utilize his potential while keeping him alive when needed. You tell me I don't help at all, while you're proposing things that you haven't thought through. 'Receiving extra damage when the spell is activated' yeah this is surely going to balance it out, because it's not like you're able to dodge ANY damage coming your way except for targeted magical attacks. That's not helping, that's just throwing random stuff out there and have people help YOU balance it. And honestly, if you think that was starting a flame war you should learn to either be a little less sensitive on the internet, or come up with a better proposal than 'make it similar to knights, let paladins receive extra damage'. That's no true drawback to balance.
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Post by hoold on Mar 20, 2016 10:23:54 GMT
1. Paladins falling far behind? Let's take a look at the highscores shall we? 2 Slim 119036806 194 4 Xirvisa 101663635 184 5 Ferret Blackbow 100133736 183 10 What The Fuck 66456673 160 2. About the spell being useless in teamhunts, I suppose none of your druids is able to heal you at all? I am able to keep an eye on other people than just my knight, making sure I have mass healing hotkeyed to save other people in my party. Oh I do know what bosses are capable of in this server, as I've made more progress last season than most people playing this server right now, so you don't need to tell me what they can do. Last season we had a paladin in our group, he had no problems whatsoever staying alive in any boss fight, no matter if he used sharpshooter or not. We had him use sharpshooter at every boss from Ulderek to the bosses in hell, and we managed to utilize his potential while keeping him alive when needed. 1. You know these guys stays insane hours online to level up or either your team level them up in team hunts (at least that was till they gained high levels). They are online almost whenever I login, lets take Slim for example he only like 2 days ago gained 20 lvls in one day (his words), so yeah I don't think it's reasonable argument. 2. You guys carry at least two healers on hunts furthermore you have hlvl ek (yeah another one who spents many hours online to lvl up) so it's much easier. - Knights sure have drawbacks on their spells but: a) They can at least use their buff spell during solo-hunts with huge variety of their aoe spells. (while still being able to heal/move so it's not like they will die instantly while using offensive stance) b) Knights might not be able to put on rings/amulets but their reduction of dmg is insane (at no cost) and giving them ability to use this wolud make them invincible, plus their defensive stance auto cast taunt 'spell' so yeah that's pretty powerful spell and even those "drawbacks" are worth using it. ~About receiving dmg by paladins during hunts (solo no team hunts, because this whole post was made because of paladins incapability to efficiently hunt alone) Many spawns don't have any obstacles for paladins to run around, they either need to tank monsters not to lure more or try to move that way so path behind them stays clear so they can run away while attacking but this often cause to lure even more monsters when the backresp shows up and you need to kite like 4-5 monsters at a time wasting 1/3 of your potions to not die. Many monsters here have huge range dmg or/and stun/paralyze abilites (at least those that are worth hunting for exp/money), so saying that paladins either do not receive any dmg or huge dmg during hunts is false and it shows that you never played (or at least too long) here as paladin. Let's finish this talk I am tired of you. Gm's will do their job, if not then help them out with showing where they made mistakes, The End.
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Post by jamalswaxon on Mar 20, 2016 12:19:02 GMT
this is what I just read "people who stay online the most have the highest exp". Lol... Yes?
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Paladin
Mar 20, 2016 13:43:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by vitalie on Mar 20, 2016 13:43:18 GMT
Stop being mean to this guy, he sinply wants to outlevel the other vocs without any commitment, always worth a shot! Maybe I should start a thread on how druids fall behind damage wise end-game? Hoolds attempt worked, eveb though paladins were the strongest end-game voc last season, so atm they're just getting better by this BS going on in this thread. If you think paladins are useless solo/in teams, you cant play the vocation = make a druid/knight. Its the ugly truth. Hey, the blessings of druids dont even work, and Im not getting 5kk/h solo either Think we should buff druids aswell?
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