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Post by hoold on Mar 15, 2016 17:28:15 GMT
Gm Darkstar suggested that I should write a post about what I think paladin lacks and why he falls behind other vocations so I will try to show you my point of view as a person who plays as a paladin and propose few ways to make him more playable.
- indicates problem ~ solution I came up with
1. Single Target Dmg
-Paladin currently has low dps, his basic attack + spells are pretty low comparing to mages and knight, as of now it's hard to catch up to knights and mages with their high exp per hour without spending a lot of time. Most of time paladin has to be dragged because it's taking too long to level up alone. (I asked few people about their exp/h and so avarge exp/h for hlvl paladins is around 1.6kk and knights reach even 5kk/h sometimes -I myself managed to get 1.9kk/h exp but comparing to knight of same lvl it's still 2-times lower than what they can get) ~My solution is easy: change dmg formula so min dmg will increase with increasing skill & slightly increase maximum dmg increase per lvl/skill also so avarge dmg of basic attack would increase for paladins.
-Strong Ethereal Spear 'Exori Gran Con' spell is kind of useless it only does 40% more dmg than Ethereal Spear 'Exori Con' and has 8sec cooldown (so it's like extra 40dmg more every 8sec ~.~)
(the general issue here is that knights use huge variety of aoe and single target spells to kill monsters, they have so much of those spells so they can easily cast one after another hitting multiple targets or single while dealing massive dmg, mages also have big arsenal of their own while theirs attacks has pretty much stable dmg, while paladin relies mostly on his basic attack (which has wide range of dmg & chance to miss his attacks) and few spells with low/medium dmg)
2. Survivability & related issues - I will start with paladin problems here and then go to overall problems.
2.1 Paladin -Paladin supposed to be off-tank in hard situations assisting knights and in worst case scenerio replacing him as a tank (by putting on shield and taunting monsters), solution here is quite easy to solve. ~Paladin needs Taunt 'exeta min res' like spell that will allow him to take aggro of one monster (be it attacking healer/shooter or even boss itself), this spells should have low-medium mana cost and decent cooldown (not to long to make it useful but still not spammable - 100mp and 8sec seems as a balanced amount). He doesn't need area taunt like Challenge 'exeta res', it's solely knight role and ability to taunt many enemies at once!
-Paladin is a vocation that most of the time keep distance from enemies while using two-handed weapons (e.g. bows) so he need to be fast enough to be able to keep this distance or run away but here paladin fall behind every other class when it comes to speed. Knights and mages can spam their strongest spells respectively -Charge 'utani tempo hur' & Strong Haste 'utani gran hur' for 100mp and they last 5s & 10s without any penalties when paladins Swift Foot 'utamo tempo san' costs 200mp last 10s and blocks paladin ability to attack and cast offensive spells, conclusion is that it's useless during hunts while other vocations can just move swiftly around a spawn leaving paladin behind and forcing whole team to wait for paladin so he can catch up to them.
2.2 General
- There is problem with monsters opening hit, some (if not all) monsters tend to start a battle with double melee hit making it pretty dangerous not only for paladins or mages but even knight who can lure few monsters and then be devastated.
-Another problem is that armour/shielding system doesn't work how it supposed to be, to put it simply - paladin ~90lvl, ~65 shielding, 35def shield, ~32arm is hitted by ghoul for ~40, monk can deal ~120dmg and this goes on with other monsters.
-Each vocation is supposed to get 45 points each level which are assigned to health/mana/capacity currently Knights gain 5 more per level and it's increase their capacity by additional 5 points each time. Therefore I propose to increase paladins and mages cap by an additonal 5 each level aswell.
3. Area of Dmg Paladin doesn't lack in this area since he was never supposed to attack large amount monsters at once. Thanks to Divine Caldera 'exevo mas san' he is able to kill monsters immune to physical dmg (ghosts and alike) and uncover invisble ones while dealing low dmg, it also allows to hit monsters during group hunts so he will gain 'kills' to task. New spell Split Arrow 'exori mas con' allows paladin hit up to three targets, mana cost and cooldown are pretty well matched to this one since they not allow to spam it but still it's usefull when we want to deal extra dmg even to single target or in situation similar to described above with group hunts.
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Post by Fixuki on Mar 15, 2016 18:10:07 GMT
Allow me to respond to your post point by point.
-Paladin currently has low dps, his basic attack + spells are pretty low comparing to mages and knight, as of now it's hard to catch up to knights and mages with their high exp per hour without spending a lot of time. Most of time paladin has to be dragged because it's taking too long to level up alone. (I asked few people about their exp/h and so avarge exp/h for hlvl paladins is around 1.6kk and knights reach even 5kk/h sometimes -I myself managed to get 1.9kk/h exp but comparing to knight of same lvl it's still 2-times lower than what they can get) ~My solution is easy: change dmg formula so min dmg will increase with increasing skill & slightly increase maximum dmg increase per lvl/skill also so avarge dmg of basic attack would increase for paladins.
The first part of this is bullshit, paladins actually have the highest single target DPS on this server, by far. The fact that they lack consistent AOE damage doesn't mean they have low DPS, they just distribute their damage in a different way. Yes, paladins will level slower on avarage, but are able to hunt longer & safer than mage, while making more profit doing that. The problem here isn't paladins doing 1.5~2kk/h, the problem is knights being able to hit 5kk/h (even though this is with ALL the exp bonuses you can get by donating, so gotta take that with a grain of salt) while solo hunting.
The avarage damage of a normal attack by a paladin doesn't have to be changed, it's already by far the highest in the game.
-Strong Ethereal Spear 'Exori Gran Con' spell is kind of useless it only does 40% more dmg than Ethereal Spear 'Exori Con' and has 8sec cooldown (so it's like extra 40dmg more every 8sec ~.~)
(the general issue here is that knights use huge variety of aoe and single target spells to kill monsters, they have so much of those spells so they can easily cast one after another hitting multiple targets or single while dealing massive dmg, mages also have big arsenal of their own while theirs attacks has pretty much stable dmg, while paladin relies mostly on his basic attack (which has wide range of dmg & chance to miss his attacks) and few spells with low/medium dmg)
Again, the issue here isn't the paladin and it's spells, it's that knights have such a huge arsenal of spells to PG with. Nothing more to say about this point.
-Paladin supposed to be off-tank in hard situations assisting knights and in worst case scenerio replacing him as a tank (by putting on shield and taunting monsters), solution here is quite easy to solve. ~Paladin needs Taunt 'exeta min res' like spell that will allow him to take aggro of one monster (be it attacking healer/shooter or even boss itself), this spells should have low-medium mana cost and decent cooldown (not to long to make it useful but still not spammable - 100mp and 8sec seems as a balanced amount). He doesn't need area taunt like Challenge 'exeta res', it's solely knight role and ability to taunt many enemies at once!
They can already easily be used as an offtank in any situation, the taunt isn't really necessary and removes a vital point of knights.
-Paladin is a vocation that most of the time keep distance from enemies while using two-handed weapons (e.g. bows) so he need to be fast enough to be able to keep this distance or run away but here paladin fall behind every other class when it comes to speed. Knights and mages can spam their strongest spells respectively -Charge 'utani tempo hur' & Strong Haste 'utani gran hur' for 100mp and they last 5s & 10s without any penalties when paladins Swift Foot 'utamo tempo san' costs 200mp last 10s and blocks paladin ability to attack and cast offensive spells, conclusion is that it's useless during hunts while other vocations can just move swiftly around a spawn leaving paladin behind and forcing whole team to wait for paladin so he can catch up to them.
There's a point in here I agree with, it's ridiculous that knights can use charge without any penalties. But hey, once again, that's a problem with the knight vocation being too strong, not as much the paladin being 'weaker'.
- There is problem with monsters opening hit, some (if not all) monsters tend to start a battle with double melee hit making it pretty dangerous not only for paladins or mages but even knight who can lure few monsters and then be devastated.
Honestly, I haven't had any huge issues with that this season, but yea it is annoying at the moment. However it has been a unsolved problem for 3 seasons, I kinda doubt it's going to be solved any time soon.
-Another problem is that armour/shielding system doesn't work how it supposed to be, to put it simply - paladin ~90lvl, ~65 shielding, 35def shield, ~32arm is hitted by ghoul for ~40, monk can deal ~120dmg and this goes on with other monsters.
Doesn't seem like much of a problem really, haven't heard anyone complain about this so far. I've been hunting/blocking orc leaders/warlords at level 25 as a paladin, they don't feel that weak while blocking stuff.
-Each vocation is supposed to get 45 points each level which are assigned to health/mana/capacity currently Knights gain 5 more per level and it's increase their capacity by additional 5 points each time. Therefore I propose to increase paladins and mages cap by an additonal 5 each level aswell.
No, no, no. This would make the server even easier because every vocation can cap so much more supplies. It would add up to nearly 200 extra GMPs at level 150 as a mage, that's insane.
TL;dr: Knights are too strong, paladins are in a decent spot. They have strengths and weaknesses, gotta play around them.
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Paladin
Mar 15, 2016 18:42:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by jamalswaxon on Mar 15, 2016 18:42:52 GMT
Long cool down single target taunt for a paladin? I approve. Damage for a pally is fine, but I was thinking about maybe suggesting adding a holy damage aoe rune (like 65-70% of the damage of a regular rune by a Mage). This would increase their exp gain, and not make them OP.
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Post by ferrados on Mar 15, 2016 18:47:14 GMT
Fixuki nails it. 'nuf said.
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Paladin
Mar 15, 2016 19:01:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by jamalswaxon on Mar 15, 2016 19:01:53 GMT
This post probably belongs in another thread, but a big problem with progression on this server is that you "need" a knight and Druid to finish a dungeon (unless you are overleveled. To fix that problem, why not add spells that make a sorcerer/paladin more useful, but not necessarily equal. Paladin can have a single target taunt, while sorc could give a "mana barrier" or something of the sorts. Let's be real, sorcerer doesn't have a big advantage damage wise over Druid. THIS POST SOUNDS CRAZY, but it might be crazy enough to work.
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Post by Fixuki on Mar 15, 2016 19:36:33 GMT
This post probably belongs in another thread, but a big problem with progression on this server is that you "need" a knight and Druid to finish a dungeon (unless you are overleveled. To fix that problem, why not add spells that make a sorcerer/paladin more useful, but not necessarily equal. Paladin can have a single target taunt, while sorc could give a "mana barrier" or something of the sorts. Let's be real, sorcerer doesn't have a big advantage damage wise over Druid. THIS POST SOUNDS CRAZY, but it might be crazy enough to work. Well point of bosses is needing a knight until the point you severely outlevel said boss. Why else would we have knights in this game ._.
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Paladin
Mar 15, 2016 19:41:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by jamalswaxon on Mar 15, 2016 19:41:56 GMT
What do you mean what point? Knights are obviously preferred blockers. If you had a choice of a guy with only single target taunt vs knight, obviously you would choose the knight. Not to mention the tons of extra HP a knight as (and armor and damage reduction) but it would be nice if you had an "alternative option". It wouldn't change PVP in the slightest.
And just for comparisons sake, even if you had a level 50 knight for Tauren dungeon, vs a level 80 paladin for tauren dungeon, the knight would be the preferred blocker, but at least with elbow grease it would be possible to get to sheng with a paladin as a tank.
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Post by Slim on Mar 15, 2016 20:34:50 GMT
I wouldnt mind having holy flash scale a bit more with lvl/ml
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Post by Fixuki on Mar 15, 2016 20:44:34 GMT
What do you mean what point? Knights are obviously preferred blockers. If you had a choice of a guy with only single target taunt vs knight, obviously you would choose the knight. Not to mention the tons of extra HP a knight as (and armor and damage reduction) but it would be nice if you had an "alternative option". It wouldn't change PVP in the slightest. And just for comparisons sake, even if you had a level 50 knight for Tauren dungeon, vs a level 80 paladin for tauren dungeon, the knight would be the preferred blocker, but at least with elbow grease it would be possible to get to sheng with a paladin as a tank. Thing is that paladins aren't meant to be tanks, so they shouldn't be made into some sort of tank either in my opinion. As for the single target taunt vs knight, at a boss this doesn't change much for taunting part, as 99% of the time you only have to keep 1 boss hitting you. Yes you have extra HP as a knight, but at the lower levels this isn't an issue as much as when it is when you start getting more towards Prison island (maybe orc dungeon slightly). At the higher levels the taunt isn't gonna matter as you're not going to have a paladin tank anything after the orc dungeon/prison island breaking point anyway. I don't see why anything has to be changed, paladins are good as they are right now, knights are most likely a bit too strong in comparison right now.
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Post by hoold on Mar 15, 2016 20:57:44 GMT
A The first part of this is bullshit, paladins actually have the highest single target DPS on this server, by far. The fact that they lack consistent AOE damage doesn't mean they have low DPS, they just distribute their damage in a different way. Yes, paladins will level slower on avarage, but are able to hunt longer & safer than mage, while making more profit doing that. The problem here isn't paladins doing 1.5~2kk/h, the problem is knights being able to hit 5kk/h (even though this is with ALL the exp bonuses you can get by donating, so gotta take that with a grain of salt) while solo hunting.
The avarage damage of a normal attack by a paladin doesn't have to be changed, it's already by far the highest in the game. TL;dr: Knights are too strong, paladins are in a decent spot. They have strengths and weaknesses, gotta play around them.Generaly I can agree with you but: 1. Friend of mine reached 5.2kk exp/h without experience potion only on guild experience buff. (not this one for 10 members online), so it's not with All exp bonuses available. 2. How can you say paladins have highest dmg in game? I hit 20-500 while also missing sometimes + spells dmg around 100dmg per turn, so it makes on avarge 360dps while mages of same level hit stable dmg of 450-500 with sds only if he rotate it with his spells + wand dmg it goes way higher. (even the supposed to be final paladin spell is kind of useless, at least I don't use it until it's a boss fight since using it decrases time I can spent hunting (consumes 15 arrows per use)) Edit: So I talked a little bit about mages exp/h with some people and it seems knights are not alone with reaching crazy exp/h alone, mages can easily do 3.6kk/h by luring monsters one by one, and by few at a time they could even more (but obviously for a higher price).
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Post by ferrados on Mar 15, 2016 21:14:59 GMT
personally I hit up to 700, and 600 hits are quite common. Rarely do I hit less than 100 or outright miss. add on a constant 150 ethereal spear/holy strike and I will out-DPS a mage easily, and for a lot cheaper too! I haven't even once used SDs yet to hunt and I'm not even using an endgame crossbow with infernal bolts. When it comes to exp/h, AoE is king. And like fix said you trade that AoE for being able to hunt longer, safer and cheaper.
The idea of Taunt on a paladin is interesting though. I feel like it would help a bit being less reliant on finding an ek+ed to team up with early on. But late game I don't see much use for it other than when you're helping newbies with taurens.
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Post by jamalswaxon on Mar 15, 2016 22:40:38 GMT
Clearly what I've been trying to say isn't being said. There is OBVIOUSLY a pattern when it comes to finding a group.. You HAVE to have 1 knight and 1 druid, or 'you ain't gone do shit' when it comes to progression. That's what I'm getting at. Technically, paladins can be tanks. They can have swords and shields man. You're thinking of an "Archer" or "Hunter".
But back on topic.. a good comparison is serpent spawns, does a paladin get better xp/hr there than mage? No, they don't (and mages do not use multi target spells there). Take that with a grain of salt.
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Post by Fixuki on Mar 16, 2016 16:09:49 GMT
A The first part of this is bullshit, paladins actually have the highest single target DPS on this server, by far. The fact that they lack consistent AOE damage doesn't mean they have low DPS, they just distribute their damage in a different way. Yes, paladins will level slower on avarage, but are able to hunt longer & safer than mage, while making more profit doing that. The problem here isn't paladins doing 1.5~2kk/h, the problem is knights being able to hit 5kk/h (even though this is with ALL the exp bonuses you can get by donating, so gotta take that with a grain of salt) while solo hunting.
The avarage damage of a normal attack by a paladin doesn't have to be changed, it's already by far the highest in the game. TL;dr: Knights are too strong, paladins are in a decent spot. They have strengths and weaknesses, gotta play around them.Generaly I can agree with you but: 1. Friend of mine reached 5.2kk exp/h without experience potion only on guild experience buff. (not this one for 10 members online), so it's not with All exp bonuses available. 2. How can you say paladins have highest dmg in game? I hit 20-500 while also missing sometimes + spells dmg around 100dmg per turn, so it makes on avarge 360dps while mages of same level hit stable dmg of 450-500 with sds only if he rotate it with his spells + wand dmg it goes way higher. (even the supposed to be final paladin spell is kind of useless, at least I don't use it until it's a boss fight since using it decrases time I can spent hunting (consumes 15 arrows per use)) Edit: So I talked a little bit about mages exp/h with some people and it seems knights are not alone with reaching crazy exp/h alone, mages can easily do 3.6kk/h by luring monsters one by one, and by few at a time they could even more (but obviously for a higher price). I can say paladins have the highest single target DPS in the game because at EVERY boss I've been killing over the 3 seasons the paladin got the highest exp when it was taken down, whenever we weren't sharing exp. You're just looking at the regular monsters, but you have to take all of the monsters in account when you look at the damage dealt (since this is a teambased server, the main focus lies on killing bosses in dungeons etc.). Honestly on this server, I'd rather take a paladin with me to any boss than a 3rd druid or a single sorcerer, that's how good they are against single targets. There's also hunting spots I'd take a paladin over a knight/mage, the warlock/infernalist tower is a good example of that. Besides, your definition is average is way off, since paladins hit 300's way more than they hit 0's on this server. Paladins have always been having the lowest exp/h in this version of tibia, but once again they make up for being cheap to play. In all 3 seasons I haven't heard the highest level paladins complain once about their damage, because most knew what their vocations was about & what it was capable of.
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slim
Nightmare Scion
Posts: 53
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Post by slim on Mar 16, 2016 16:56:13 GMT
One thing I think pallys are lacking is training, I grab 100 spears pop into trainers and xlog and i get like 45 mins training? then after that its fist training time.
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Post by ferrados on Mar 16, 2016 18:17:13 GMT
You just have to manage your soulpoints a bit better then knights and take the time to make some Enchanted Spears, they last much longer. (about 80 soulpoints for a stack).
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