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Post by GM Kelin on Apr 5, 2014 12:40:25 GMT
Background:When we decided to create this server "trainer-free" we wanted to enforce the RPG feeling of knights and paladins having to actually train their skills from time to time. However, our idea seems to have sort of backfired. While one big group of people didn't train at all, and thereby got the idea that their vocation was underpowered, many others systematically created characters to only train (some of them using bots), using the protection level to avoid being killed. Situation:As of now, the most efficient way to level a knight is the following: Train your skills while below level 50 on gargoyles until you are at high-level skills. Then, go ahead and level normally. We do not feel this is the way it should be. Training is something that should be done throughout all the levels, and there should be a limit on how much you are allowed to train. Solutions:Even though it goes against our idea of a server, we have to admit that the most efficient solution to this problem is giving the (time-limited) ability for people to train safely while away from their characters. Be this by offline training, training monks, training dummies, either of them works. Of course, this would require tweaks in the skill-rates and damage output of knights and paladins to remain balanced. Since this is a very delicate subject, we wanted to create this thread to ask about your opinion on it. If you have any kind of idea, suggestion, or just want to point out a fact that we might have overlooked when analyzing this subject, please do so
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Post by zealot on Apr 5, 2014 12:47:04 GMT
Honestly, I like the idea, but I think if it was to be implemented it should have some restrictions to it.
For example, making the trainers or whatever only accessible if you have adventurer rank in the Sarlin Society.
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Post by Fixuki on Apr 5, 2014 13:13:31 GMT
Honestly, I don't think the training system has to be changed. Sure, it can be abused by people under 50 ATM by botting, but the same will happen by implenting trainers. I never had a real problem training, sure you get pked once in a while, but that's the risk of playing a pvp server and the risk of going afk.
It would also be quite unfair to implent it now after people spent so many hours training, I suppose it could be an option for the new season to attract more players.
I would vote against it, but I suppose we'll have to see what the rest thinks.
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Post by Bicepspump on Apr 5, 2014 15:31:05 GMT
I dont like this idea. Just because I have used the method for training as you explain in the background. I have trained my skills troughout my 169 levels and therefore i vote against this.
Should you implement offline training of any sort, dont do it this season!
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Post by capetagem on Apr 5, 2014 15:39:19 GMT
yeah should change these things on season 2 =x.
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Post by saber on Apr 5, 2014 15:50:25 GMT
Well gargolyes are like training monks.... The place is small but it looks like designed specially for training.
If you want from people to develop skills continously the offline training would do it, especially that it could work for mages too. It could be something like -> Time for offline training -> 1/5 time spent in the game. So actually online training would be more efficient.
Pros: -> People will develop skills more constantly. -> You will not have to 'waste' your time on training.
Cons: -> It would kill the RPG training style. -> It would make ppl go offline.
I would also want to report mage training:
Currently it is so easy to train magic level as a sorcerer. The cost of making sudden death runes using mana potions is considerable small comparing to the cost of this rune in the shop. I know the same applies to other kinds of runes however the sudden death rune is the one you make best profit with.
I suppose the removal of soul points was intended to allow people rune making, however I would like to suggest giving some limitations on the sudden death rune making.
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Post by jamalswaxon on Apr 5, 2014 16:36:07 GMT
Training absolutely sucks. There is no fun in it! Those who watch movies and train their skills aren't being punished here by any means. It brings a slow, but gradual way to gain skills! If it is implemented - MAKE IT SLOW. 12 hours of offline training should NOT BE WORTH 6 hours online. Maybe 1-2. In my opinion it would be just a great way for paladins and knights to buffer their skills if they were to die.
Edit: Those who spent the time training already aren't being punished here either. You're at the top of the skills and if you use offline training, just like everyone else, that won't change.
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Post by GM Kelin on Apr 5, 2014 17:06:10 GMT
Just some clarifications: 1) Of course, this system would make your skills progress slower than while playing. This has never been under question. 2) As said, the system would have some time limit (which is the actual purpose of implementing it). It would probably be limited by your online time probably. 3) Whatever we implemented, no matter if offline training or trainers, would be botter-proof. About fairness: We are trying to see if the system is good. If we were limited by fairness, we could not implement any further content into the game, because of course it would be unfair. Examples: - Implementing a new dwarf area is unfair for the people that already leveled up for some months without that area existing. - If there is a bug where you can press 'Enter' and get 10k gold, we should obviously not remove it because it's unfair for people who join the game after it is removed. Please refrain from using that argument in favour/against it. Imagine it the following way: "If this system was to be implemented in Season 2, would you like it or not?" Thanks for everyone's opinions, keep them comming!
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Post by Fixuki on Apr 5, 2014 20:57:44 GMT
To be fair, I don't think exping and training can be compared, but I get the general idea. Implenting it in season 2 would have my support.
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Post by Afflicted on Apr 6, 2014 23:02:36 GMT
I made a thread suggesting this but I guess nobody saw it. ruthlesschaos.boards.net/thread/187/hear-me-outI think offline trainers would be the easiest way to do this. The offline training is already limited to 12 hours at a time and you can adjust the rate it fills up to be balanced with training while online. It should be done in a way to make training online more beneficial but not feel like its necessary. For me personally I like this idea because I don't have the free time right now to train my skills, but I still like to do decent damage.
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Nerkantos
Ginyu Force
Why I has no profit!
Posts: 77
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Post by Nerkantos on Apr 9, 2014 1:02:31 GMT
I wouldnt like to see offline training on the current season, its unnecesary as many players have already trained to get some really good skills and others are still training to get them, Maybe you could add more double Gargoyles spawns right now theres only 2 as far as I know which pretty much limits 2 knights to train in an optimal way at the same time. Or what about a training totem like the ones from zinc coins the diference would be it heals itself often and last longer, it should also be able to attack the player that summons it but I guess thats not necesary as someone can easily lure a couple of creatures, also to keep players using them to block creatures or bosses just make them have low hp lets say 200-300? after all a gargoyle only have 250 hp and everyone can skill on them. Something I believe its important the totem should only be attacked by the person who summons it or its party members to avoid it getting killed by random people or instead just make players below lvl 50 unable of attacking the totems so they dont go around destroying these totems without fear of retribution. I dont know what everyone else thinks about these totems but I like the idea of grabbing my totems and go somewhere secret-ish to train at least until someone cast exiva.
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Mist
Ginyu Force
Posts: 113
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Post by Mist on Apr 9, 2014 5:41:07 GMT
The problem isn't the getting skills, there are several people getting skills. I don't think offline training or trainers are the solutions, rather decrease the training rate under level 50, or make it gradually decrease when hitting monsters, not gaining experience.
However, one part that removes the training aspect from the game, is the fact knights don't need shielding for tanking, practically. With that spell (Iron Wall), it doesn't really matter, and that's a shame.
Problems: * People are abusing skilling below level 50 * People do not skill because A) Boring B) Doesn't matter that much * People are AFK-training
Solutions: * As mentioned, decreased skill gradually hitting monsters not gaining experience on low levels. * Make it matter some how. * Make anti-bots / simple manual anti-bots.
Sorry for limited ideas, but I sincerly do not think offline-trainers or regular trainers is the way to go.
Thanks Mist.
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Post by zealot on Apr 9, 2014 8:46:51 GMT
However, one part that removes the training aspect from the game, is the fact knights don't need shielding for tanking, practically. With that spell (Iron Wall), it doesn't really matter, and that's a shame. Totally on the oposite lol, utamo res makes shielding incredibly more important in this game, because when you use iron wall your shielding increases some % of your original shielding! (i believe somewhere around 200%) This makes that every shielding skill you advance will be tripled when using utamo res, making shielding 3x more effective.
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Mist
Ginyu Force
Posts: 113
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Post by Mist on Apr 9, 2014 9:22:11 GMT
Hum, not what I heard, but you're the knight However it's strange many knight settle with their 75~80 skills ..
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Post by Fixuki on Apr 9, 2014 9:49:30 GMT
I'm at 80/73ish as knight and I'm totally fine blocking, most bosses I face use a lot of elemental spells and very few physical damage, making the shielding not that important at my level. The reason I use utamo result is to make sure I taunt everything and for the 10% extra HP I get.
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